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Disabling "require login" for returning custs

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Category: ProductCart
Forum Name: Customizing ProductCart
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URL: https://forum.productcart.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2137
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Topic: Disabling "require login" for returning custs
Posted By: Matty-CT
Subject: Disabling "require login" for returning custs
Date Posted: 13-November-2008 at 12:09pm
Hi all,
 
First post here as I've bugged Early Impact by email for all questions previously.  I figured that it's time to register in the forum.  One of my clients wants to modify their ProductCart install so that returning (previously registered) customers can submit an order without having to enter their password.  Personally, I don't see the big deal but the customer is always right, eh?
 
I've searched the forum and wiki and saw references to this but no conclusion or changes to code to accomplish it.  If it is as easy as someone once stated, might someone post the ASP changes to do it?
 
Thanks,
 
Matt



Replies:
Posted By: lesliecv
Date Posted: 06-January-2009 at 3:00pm
Please tell me if this can be changed. I think it's a big deal because first time customers on my site can choose to "No, I want to checkout without creating a password." However, when they return, they get this message:

"Based on your e-mail address, we see that you have purchased from us before. Thank you for your previous business and welcome you back to our store!

Because it is necessary for us to associate all orders with a specific e-mail address, a customer account was created for you last time you ordered. A random password was also created for you, so that you could login and use the same information again without having to re-enter it.

Click here and this temporary password will be immediately sent to you."

This is enough for repeat customers to jump ship. Especially since they chose to purchase without creating a password - and alas, one was created without their knowledge.

Is there any way to change this so that repeat customers who chose not to create a password can just purchase without being faced with logging in? And for customers who have forgotten their password, they can purchase without logging in?

Let's make it easy to purchase stuff,
Leslie


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 06-January-2009 at 4:00pm
Hi Matt, sorry you didn't get a reply before & Hi Leslie,
   The problem is that all orders must be associated with an email so that the customer can receive emails about the fact that their order has been processed, shipped, there is a problem etc etc. This email address is their userid on the store and that combined with a password, auto-generated or , more normally, manually set by them allows access to information specific to that customer. e.g. Name & Address, previous orders etc. 

If they are returning customers they obviously trusted you enough to place an order in the first place so I would have thought they would be OK with a password at that point.
Without it they would also have to re-enter all their personal details each time they order.

The only way round this I can see right now is to, once they have completed their order, amend the email address associated with their account, so in effect freeing it up for re-use. You would not want to delete the customer record as that would also delete all the customers orders from the system.
There is no automated method for achieving this.

Without a proper login customers haqve no access to see their previous orders and perform RMA's etc.


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Posted By: DavidH
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 7:02pm
What amazes me most is I have read posts and requests as far back as 2006 on this very subject and according to Hamish, there is no Early Impact approved method or fix to accomplishing what many online sites have been offering for years now. If customers have come up with a way to do this, why hasn't Early Impact programmed it into the cart and offer it as an option?  It doesn't seem that difficult to me as you just tell the customer, without creating or reusing an established account, you will not receive confirmations, etc,. etc. etc. Leave it up to them.  Has anyone come up with an easy way to institute the Hack to do this.  My customer is asking for it which is another amazing thing to me. All of us smarty pants are sitting here explaining to each other why we should or should not require an account as if trying to convince each other while our customers look at us as if we have two heads why such an obvious feature is missing from a product we just talked them into spending hundreds of dollars on. Can anyone ease my pain?


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 9:29pm
Hi DavidH,
   Firstly, I'd like to make it clear my posts on the forum are my personal opinions and not any formal position or opinion of Early Impact.

What exactly does your customer want?
I don't think this is an obvious feature - indeed from a personal/business point of view I think it's a slightly crazy idea, but then of course I'm not your customer and I don't know the rational behind their thinking.
 
Collecting customer email addresses is valuable for marketing purposes as well as communicating with customers about their orders. I don't know of any ecommerce stores that don't require an email address and I'm not aware of any that don't require a password , although I guess there are probably some. I suspect they make up a very very small percentage of ecommerce stores.
 
Myself, I would avoid a website that was asking for all my personal details but apparently offering no way of protecting them. If all that is required to access the account is an email address this would be totally unacceptable to me and probably breach rules on protecting privacy in most countries.
 
 A ProductCart store does not technically require the correct email address, just a valid one.
A customer can register with Mmouse@disneyworld.com and their order will still be accepted by the software. The customer is then, of course, "isolated" from email communication.

It follows from this that it would be possible to :-

A) Advise them about the various services which provide temporary email addresses. (Google for temporary email addresses)
B) Advise the customer to make up a random email address, as long as it's NOT a valid one that may belong to someone else.
C) Automatically "zap" the email address provided by setting it to something random, or, for example, adding in the order number after the "@" with some custom code.

I have never had a client who has requested this facility and would like to understand what the reasoning behind  the request is.

Has anyone written code to achieve option C ? What has been the outcome?
 



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Posted By: DavidH
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 9:50pm
Hamish, I wasn't trying to pin your post on being Early Impacts official position. Sorry if that was how it came through. I was meerly indicating that I read posts as far back as 2006 about the returning customer Password issue and your post was created in 2009. In three years, I still see posts by people on this site convincing and arguing why the current quick checkout process in the cart product is "Correct" or appropriate when there are many of us expressing the need for true Quick checkout where it does not require the customer to go through the tedious process of waiting for the temp password to arrive by email so they can proceed to buy your product. My customer upon launching their cart (site) ran into the returning customer/email temp password process within the first 4 customers.  I saw another post where someone came up with a Hack so it did not do this. It let them truelly Quick Checkout without requiring the user to wait for the email to arrive (if they can even get their email where they are at all) so they can finish the checkout process. This is what I meant by seems easy.  Customers have already developed a way to get around this process which many other higher end sites do not require you to do.
 
You mentioned "I don't know of any ecommerce stores that don't require an email address and I'm not aware of any that don't require a password " The email address I would absolutely agree with you but the password part I beleive you are incorrect.  There are many sites that gives me the option to quick checkout without establishing an account with password and when I go back to them, it does not ask me to wait to get a temp password. That is the part I think is insane and should have been changed long ago.  This is the same opinion of my customer and the others I have seen in this forum. Heck, one guy gave really convincing proff that it increased sales by 40% when they put the hack in to not require the temp password and to let the user quick checkout correctly each time back to the site.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 10:41pm
Hi DavidH,
     The first time a customer visits they are slowed down by having to provide name and address details. On subsequent visits the checkout is faster if they use a regular account.

The biggest issue with not requiring a password at all, not even an auto-generated one, would be that the customer would have to be treated as a new customer each time. Because the email address IS the account this gives access to personal data such as name, address, contact details, purchase history etc etc.  To quote a post from EarlyImpact :
"All in all, there are so many advanced features in ProductCart that are tied to the creation and existence of a customer account that right now it simply does not make sense for us to perform the code changes."

They also pointed out that Google Checkout provides similar functionality.

If you do wish to modify the code then I recommend contacting ssharp to see if they are willing to share the code.
If I was to carry out such a project I think I'd look to place the code just after the order confirmation email has been set and IF (and only IF) the customer has selected the "Checkout without entering a password" feature I would zap the email address at that point, probably using the order number as in my previous post.

Before doing this though I would feel honour bound to go through all the consequences, in terms of loss of useable functionality etc,  of such a change with my client.
If it was really such a great idea then Amazon and the other big players in the market would allow it - but they don't. Still, if your client insists even after you explain all the consequences then I guess you may have to go ahead.



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Posted By: DavidH
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 11:15pm
Hamish, that is the goal. The customer does not want to create an account and doesn't mind being treated as a new customer each time because that leads them to believe they are not being tracked or that you don't keep their account info on record (which of course we know they do but the customer wants to feel you are not).  The point is that Quick Checkouts have gained in popularity dramatically over the last several years because shoppers are more hesitant to give up their email address (because of the spam onslaught) rather then their credit card.  I appreciate you looking at this from the cart or developer angle by talking about the features that would be lost etc. but the customer comfort and desire for certain features takes precident. 
 
Amazon is a very good site and it is one way that checkout is performed. But I encourage you to go to sites like Bestbuy, Staples, JCPenney, Homedepot, etc. etc. They have Checkouts that say "You don't need to register for an account to check out - just click "Continue". You can still register once your order is complete, to enjoy faster checkouts and other benefits"  This is not a new trend and sales increase dramatically whenever this style of checkout is instituted. It has been on the rise and I love Product Cart enough to wish they would stay up with obvious trends instead of fighting it because of the re-coding time. I want to keep using this product and if the clients we have want this feature in their cart (which they obviously do as I found out in the first 4 orders) I will need to look at other options which I don't want to do. There has to be a way to flawlessly work in a quick checkout function for those customers that desire it. It basically takes you back to the days when you filled out a form and sent it to Authorizenet for processing and recorded the transaction in the DB. We were doing that 10 years ago. It should not be that tough to do.


Posted By: DavidH
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 11:47pm

Sorry, followup to my last sentence. It should be as easy as the customer selects Quick Checkout and even a checkbox or something that says they understand they will be treated as a new customer each time, the site should collect their billing, shipping and other necesary info and bypass the returning customer routine. If the email already exists, no problem. The customer already knows from the previous step that their info will need to be reenterd the next time in. Send the order info to Authnet and store the Order info in the tables. Simple  :-)  (I see steam coming out of your ears from here)



Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 11:53pm
Hi David,

The reason why ProductCart v3 does not have "Guest Checkout" is not philosophical.  To reference the quote Hamish posted from Early Impact “there are so many advanced features… tied to the creation and existence of a customer account”.  From an architectural design standpoint this will not change in v3.  

- Keep an eye on ProductCart v4.  Changes to the checkout process are on the road map (though I do not yet have specifics). 

-  This could result in the type of article that would be a good fit for the wiki.  The wiki is community based, meaning everyone can share and quality check each other’s contributions.  So I would encourage people to share their workarounds for this issue on the wiki. 


Posted By: DavidH
Date Posted: 04-March-2009 at 11:59pm
Thanks Matt!  I really hope it makes it into v4. I think it is a real gain for Product Cart adding to it's already superior features list!! If the numbers I have seen from Research Firms about Guest checkouts are even half true, that feature could translate into more sales of Product cart if the feature is included.


Posted By: Matty-CT
Date Posted: 05-March-2009 at 11:13am
I have to echo DavidH's sentiments.  Even though I, personally, have no issue with the current structure, my client for whom I host ProductCart noticed immediately the inability to reorder without logging into to an account.  Certainly, there is a segment of Internet shoppers that eschew accounts and just want the simplicity of plugging in their address and payment information and then completing their purchase.  None of us here may be a part of that group, but it does exist.  My client was very disappointed after shelling out big bucks for an otherwise fantastic shopping cart that it didn't offer the option he knows some shoppers want.  My guess is that a subset of older shoppers want the "anonymity" of not creating an account.
 
In the end we decided to skip the hack (I wasn't happy with the Rube Goldberg solution), and just accepted that it isn't an option.
 
Regardless, I'm very happy with Early Impact support and ProductCart's extensive capabilities.


Posted By: Matty-CT
Date Posted: 05-March-2009 at 11:15am
I would like to see it implemented in future as an option, even if it is a discouraged option!


Posted By: ProductCart
Date Posted: 06-March-2009 at 5:41am
We've certainly not ignored the feedback that we have received on this topic over the last few years. The only reason why this is not yet part of ProductCart is that it is such a substantial re-write of major portions of the storefront, that it could not be part of a simple "update".

"Guest Checkout" and "One-Page Checkout" are both high on the development roadmap for ProductCart v4, which we are currently working on.

This is truly an area where we are victim of the breadth of our own software Embarrassed
The very high number of features that affect the checkout process have made the project full of hurdles that need to be overcome.

We'll keep you posted!


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Posted By: loracady
Date Posted: 13-March-2009 at 2:59pm

I would love to offer Quick Checkout with no account required.  Even people using this forum don't always log in or want to create an account.  I just noticed that there are about 26 active users right now and I am the only one who has signed in.  Who



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www.TheSleepShop.com


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 13-March-2009 at 4:02pm
Hi Loracady,
   There's a huge difference between browsing a forum and making a purchase online :-)
As per Matt's post though, this is something that is high on the wish list for V4.




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Posted By: loracady
Date Posted: 13-March-2009 at 4:33pm
Touché, Hamish!  You are correct!  Don't get me wrong- I still love my ProductCart!  But I do get a lot of weirdos who don't want to give me an email address or create an account. 

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www.TheSleepShop.com


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 13-March-2009 at 5:21pm
Hi,
    As a stopgap add a link to http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=temporary+email+addresses - http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=temporary+email+addresses on your store.  For the truly paranoid about email :-)
The only problem with a temporary email address is they usually expire after a short time, sometimes within hours. 


(Warning - wierdo moment moment coming up :-)   )
..............................
What will they do about delivery addresses and credit cards though - surely far more secret info :-O !!  (Although it's usually a payment gateway that handles the CC info).

BUT WAIT, that could be being faked ... OMG! 
Best to go to a bricks and mortar store, wearing a hat & dark glasses, double back a few times, leap on a subway train at the very last second.  Change the hat and glasses and reverse that reversible jacket....  Sneak into the store by the side entrance and pay cash (non sequential used bills of course) :-D

Although how they would hide a bed under their jacket on their journey home, now there's the rub!

.................................

Still, customers are customers & if that's what your customers want.
I was going to say about putting a email/privacy statement on your store, but I see you have that already as well as lots of other reassuring things such as the comodo image as well as providing a phone number they can call.

     



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Posted By: mimpoz
Date Posted: 24-March-2009 at 12:22pm
I have many customers who would really love to have one step checkout and are seeing a very high dropout rate during checkout. What is the estimated date for v4.0


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e-Notations
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Posted By: ProductCart
Date Posted: 25-March-2009 at 5:20am
We are shooting for an "end of summer" release for ProductCart v4. Probably early September 2009.

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The ProductCart Team

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Posted By: blackey
Date Posted: 26-March-2009 at 12:58pm
A one page checkout mod, even with the current required e-mail would be great.

We're seeing about an 18% conversion rate from a product added to the cart.

We loose about 55% at the login
We loose an additional 45% of the remaining customers at the e-mail
We loose about 30% at the address.

After the address we loose very few.

Bill
www.lpiracing.com



Posted By: BlackReefDesigns
Date Posted: 04-April-2009 at 6:10pm
Has anyone found a Temporary Solution to this yet?  We launched a new website and me and the client agree its crucial to have a "checkout with no password" option.  Please help!

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Joe S.
BlackReef.net


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 04-April-2009 at 8:16pm
Hi Joe,
   From one of my early posts on this thread :-

C) Automatically "zap" the email address provided by setting it to something random, or, for example, adding in the order number after the "@" with some custom code.

- This would require some custom code, I suggest a good place would be just after sending out the order confirmation email.


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Posted By: BlackReefDesigns
Date Posted: 06-April-2009 at 5:49pm
Could you elaborate on this Hamish?  We have a store that just launched and we are losing sales because people can't "Guest" checkout every time they order.  Many of the customers are Military/Government and they won't purchase from the site if their information is kept in a profile. 

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Joe S.
BlackReef.net


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 06-April-2009 at 8:27pm
Hi Joe,
   If you add code to modify the stored email after the email confirming the order has been sent effectively you will be "setting aside" that account, as the email address is the "key" used to identify the customer. This will allow them to place another order using the same email address whilst preserving the order etc in a valid state within the database.

You will need to preserve the customers details until the order is dispatched. At that point you could delete/make invalid the address details if you so wish, although the customer will never be able to access any of the old details anyway as they will be inaccessible to them due to the "zapped" email address. 
  


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Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 06-April-2009 at 8:35pm
Hi Joe,
     You can test the theory of this by creating a test account and a test order, then manually modifying the email address from the admin pages. Then pretend your the customer and see if you can get to the account again (allowing for the fact that you would not know the modified email address).
One additional thought - To be doubly sure, you could also "lock" the account when you zap the email address.

An enhanced "Guest checkout" is planned to be in V4, at which point this workaround will  become academic.


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Posted By: BlackReefDesigns
Date Posted: 07-April-2009 at 4:53pm
But we would have to manually zap each customer's e-mail then, no?  

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Joe S.
BlackReef.net


Posted By: joshs
Date Posted: 07-April-2009 at 5:05pm
I am not a coder but I do understand concepts.  And I desperately need a solution to this problem. 

Would it be possible to create an extra field in the customer database - email2.  Then if a customer chooses to "buy once" with no account a slightly different process happens.

a new email account is created - "invoice number" & "@website.com"  effectively creating a new customer in the system. 

The customer enters the rest of the information into the system and the order is process as normal.

As for regular customers the "email2" field would be auto filled with their current email address.

All email communications within the system would be pointed or retrieved from email2 instead.

If there is an asp programmer out there that can make this work then call me.  I need a solution yesterday.

call me @ 801 859-9897



Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 07-April-2009 at 5:09pm
Hi Joe,
   No, the idea is to write some custom code to automatically edit the email address stored for the customer. For example just after the order confirmation email has been sent. Please be aware that AFTER the email address has been zapped none of the processes to send emails to the customer, for example when an order has shipped, would work, but that should be fine as the customer doesn't want them anyway it seems. It may be worth considering additional modifications to ID the zapped email addresses and prevent additional emails even being dispatched, even to non-existant addresses.


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Posted By: BlackReefDesigns
Date Posted: 07-April-2009 at 6:25pm
Just FYI, theres a ASP Programmer on your list of go-to contacts that claims he can fix this for us for $5-10k and he can have it resolved in 2-3 weeks! wow thats alot of money

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Joe S.
BlackReef.net


Posted By: katharina
Date Posted: 07-April-2009 at 6:37pm
I think, if you loose that many customers, then there may be something else going on.  A big bailer can be related to high shipping cost (not that I've looked at your site).   I don't see such a high drop rate at our site.  Occasionally we have an incomplete, and we always email them with the option of paying over the phone.  Ironically almost all of them do call.  We also offer "call in credit card" at check out and that is being used quite frequently.  Some feel more save when they can talk to someone on the phone. 

As for checkout, this is what puzzles me.  Why even ask for an email address when someone chooses to shop with out creating an account.  Just take the address, no email confirmation, no tracking information per email, no reward points, and no login area later.   That's what those customers want?  Right?  I'm not complaining about it, since almost 100% of our customers create an account.  Perhaps having a better layout and explaining the benefits for creating an account and email usage policy on the registering page would help.  Besides it has become industry standard for customers to create accounts. 
That's all for now,
Katharina


Posted By: BlackReefDesigns
Date Posted: 07-April-2009 at 6:50pm
Katharina,

You will lose many customers to this issue if:

- A majority of your customers are Government / Military who don't want their profile saved
- And are moving from a different eCommerce site where before you could check out with a password.  So customers - who are used to quickly 'checking out with a password' now go to a new site where they have to login on their second order!

Originally posted by katharina katharina wrote:

I think, if you loose that many customers, then there may be something else going on.  A big bailer can be related to high shipping cost (not that I've looked at your site).   I don't see such a high drop rate at our site.  Occasionally we have an incomplete, and we always email them with the option of paying over the phone.  Ironically almost all of them do call.  We also offer "call in credit card" at check out and that is being used quite frequently.  Some feel more save when they can talk to someone on the phone. 

As for checkout, this is what puzzles me.  Why even ask for an email address when someone chooses to shop with out creating an account.  Just take the address, no email confirmation, no tracking information per email, no reward points, and no login area later.   That's what those customers want?  Right?  I'm not complaining about it, since almost 100% of our customers create an account.  Perhaps having a better layout and explaining the benefits for creating an account and email usage policy on the registering page would help.  Besides it has become industry standard for customers to create accounts. 
That's all for now,
Katharina


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Joe S.
BlackReef.net


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 07-April-2009 at 7:17pm
Folks - Don't forget a much enhanced  "Guest Checkout" is planned in V4.

Joe,  
   
   I don't get what you mean by "Checkout with a password" - Doing so implies they have an account and at the very least a password is always associated with an account of some sort - so would require a Login to use it..

For E-Commerce any delivery of physical products will need a delivery address collecting and if a Credit Card is used then the address associated to that account is also required by the credit card companies as part of the security processes. 

The key difference as I see it is that some customers don't want their details stored/used beyond it's use in the transaction, or am I mis-understanding the issue?

I expect those same customers will still want the ability to RMA faulty products and possibly other facilities as well. Deleting their details after the transaction is complete could be done, but whatever happens there is always an electronic paper trail, payment records from the credit card company, delivery records all of which are outside any E-Commerce software packages control  so quite what the ultimate purpose of the exercise is defeats me.  
Anyway, automatically zapping the email address would disable the account and render it inaccessible from the storefront.  If you feel the need, it would be possible to also automate invalidating addresses with some custom code after an order has been dispatched (at the point it changes to "complete").

ANOTHER OPTION springs to mind - A modified version of the "Login" page - perhaps called something completely different  "Guest Checkout" which would basiically be loging.asp but with hidden email address and password fields, where those details are automatically calculated, say a random(ish) email address pointing to the stores domain - say ZZhhmmss@mystore.com , where hhmmss are the current time to the second (most stores a very low chance of a collision). 
   


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Posted By: joshs
Date Posted: 07-April-2009 at 11:55pm
Time to re-read the clue train manifesto.
 
Actually in this particalur case the clients are actually calling up and asking how to get around the login process.    Luckily we are listening to what is going on instead of telling the customers what they should be doing.
 


Posted By: LawBkstore
Date Posted: 12-May-2009 at 1:02am
OK...I have read 4 pages of posts regarding this problem.  It is a big problem for me.  If I have a problem trying to place a test order and remember what email address and password I used, my customers do too.  I know I am losing sales because of it.  In simple english...I am not a techno geek, has anybody fixed this problem.  Can anybody direct me to may be able to do it?  It would be greatly appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
mailto:LawBkstore@aol.com - LawBkstore@aol.com


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-May-2009 at 1:44am
I've not had time to read through this whole thread, but my buddy Greg Dinger tipped me off to it while we were discussing ProductCart 3.51 this evening.
 
Anonymous checkout is a very important feature for many merchants. However, the difference between the data is just whether the shopping cart captures the email address (which is an excellent unique identifier) and a password.
 
That is, it's almost purely psychological . . .  but pschycology is the beter part of customer experience.
 
So, while, all of the same data must still be retained for the fulfillment of an order, to get the order in the first place requires a little trick to assuage the fears of the ignorant.
 
I should have a "simple" solution to this issue within the next day or two. This simple solution will ride on a minor tweak to PC.
 
I'm also working on an advanced solution which would allow any customer to create a login after several anonymous checkouts and still retrieve their anonymous order history.
 
If you are interested in either of these solutions, please PM me.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-May-2009 at 1:07am
I've completed a solid beta of this modification.
 
Once installed, customers can checkout "anonymously" repeatedly , including those that have checked out the first time this way (they will be moved into the new logic this modification introduces).
 
I've tested this under every scenario I can think of, my partner will run a barrage of tests against it tomorrow, and I've got another beta tester.
 
I will be releasing the instuctions on this mod for $25
 
If you are interested in this release, and have not already sent a private massage to me about this, please do PM me, and I'll keep you apprised.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-May-2009 at 4:23pm
Apologies for the delay in getting this released (our first volunteer beta tester wasn't able to get their developer to get around to installing it), but it has finally been beta tested successfully and is ready for release.

You can purchase the modification for unlimited anonymous checkouts here:
http://www.wmsmerchantservices.com/shopping-carts/ProductCart/add-ons.asp - http://www.wmsmerchantservices.com/shopping-carts/ProductCart/add-ons.asp



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