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Canadian GST and PST

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Category: ProductCart
Forum Name: Using ProductCart
Forum Description: Running your store with ProductCart
URL: https://forum.productcart.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2808
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Topic: Canadian GST and PST
Posted By: windsurfer
Subject: Canadian GST and PST
Date Posted: 20-June-2009 at 6:08pm
I have been searching the forum and just wondering if product cart handles the canadian taxes properly as far as customers who are exempt from PSt but not GST. Also the QST and HST taxes



Replies:
Posted By: Greg Dinger
Date Posted: 20-June-2009 at 6:17pm
www.home-distilling.com is in Toronto.  You may want to drop him a note and check in with him.  I believe the answer is yes but Ian can confirm this for you.

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 20-June-2009 at 6:21pm
Thank you But if you are a certified product cart developer wouldn't you know ?


Posted By: Greg Dinger
Date Posted: 20-June-2009 at 6:30pm
I said I believe the answer is yes, and I invited you to get the answer directly from the merchant who deals with it every day and may have further input he will share with you. 

I am simply providing the most direct course for you to obtain a quick and reliable answer.  OK?


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 20-June-2009 at 11:34pm
Hi Greg, didn't mean to tick you off, just an observation but thanks for the help. I contacted the people you referred me to and they say it can be done so hence forward we go to see if there is a demo available.


Posted By: Greg Dinger
Date Posted: 20-June-2009 at 11:47pm
I'm not upset, just trying to help get you to the answer you needed.  Not a big deal.

In terms of a demo, EI has their public demo stores here http://www.earlyimpact.com/productcart/demo.asp.  You may want to write them directly and ask if they have any non-public test stores set up for testing Canadian taxes where you might be able to exercise a store that is already set up for such a purpose.  But I do believe you can go into one of the public stores and alter the configuration as you see fit and see how things are configured.  Or if you like, contact any of we developers directly as many of us have test stores on our servers for such purposes.


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 20-June-2009 at 11:50pm
Ya it would be nice to see, I am about to pull my hair out over VPASP which claims they can handle canadian taxes but guess what ..... they can't. I'll keep plugging away at it.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 4:27am
Hi,  We have quite a few Canadian customers.
Take a look at the wiki about Canadian taxes:
http://wiki.earlyimpact.com/productcart/tax_manual#tax_by_zone_for_canadian_online_stores - wiki.earlyimpact.com/productcart/tax_manual#tax_by_zone_for_canadian_online_stores


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 8:03am
Hi Hamish, thank you. One thing i do need to do though is have certain customers exempt from paying certain taxes and that seems to be a problem, although one user tells me that it is possible but i haven't seen it yet.


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 8:05am
I think i spoke to soon, I am just reading the wiki and it does appear to be a feature. Time to get my money back from the folks at VPASP.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 11:07am
Hi,
   Is the exemption from certain taxes based on the customers location in relation to the store? e.g. located in a different state?




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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 11:27am
Hi
I am in Ontario and normally if i ship something to a customer there would be GST and PST charged on the total price. When however i have a customer who is a reseller (retailer) in Ontario he/she would be exempt from PST if he has an exemption certificate. Of course shipping out of Province is always PST exempt. GST always applies unless the item is shipped out of the country. There are however a few exeptions to the GST where a government office in i believe alberta would not pay GST either but then they would be exempt of all taxes anyway at least for an Ontario supplier. So for me this would only apply to Ontario. Now i assume that when you designate a customer as wholesaler and tax exempt that no taxes at all would apply to that sale. I am still trying to establish this. If this can't be done we are almost forced to setup 2 stores on a different server one for regular customers and 1 for resellers. If this is still confusing one could always call me at 519 842 6510


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:07pm
Just as a follow up i am looking at the demo backend and i see
Tax Rules by Product
Tax Rules by Location
Tax Rules by Zone
I don't see " tax rule by customer" and that would probably be what i am looking for.


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:11pm
I suppose one option would be to have a check button on the checkout form that would ask if the customer was  PST exempt and if this was checked there would be no PST calculated on the total. and i suppose this could hold true for any tax.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:26pm
Customers can be designated as Wholesale, in which case they are treated as TAX exempt. The only issue with this is that they potentially also get different prices and payment options if you set them up differently, but that may well be what you require anyway.

(Edited for typo).


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:31pm
Hi Hamish .... Not entirely..... I need customers to be tax exempt from one tax only. There is actually no such thing as GST tax exemption in Canada. No matter what you sell there is always GST But some customers might be PST exempt. The tax exemption is not based on location, zip code but purely weather they have a PST exemption certificate regarless of location in Ontario, remember this doesn't aplly to out of province customers.


Posted By: Greg Dinger
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:39pm
Did  you ask Ian about this?  I do recall something to this effect coming up in the past but I do not recall the resolution if there was one.


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Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:45pm
One other point about Wholesale customers, customers cannot, by default, register themselves as wholesale. This can only be set by a store administrator via the admin pages.

If desired it's possible to use some custom code to allow customers to register as wholesale, but the concern with that is it's open to abuse by customers who are not entitled to the privileges, prices, products, payment options etc usually reserved for genuine wholesale customers.  ProductCart also supports Customer Groups, who get different pricing from other groups and can be designated as either wholesale or retail.
 


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:48pm
Hi Greg
I don't know who Ian is , but i am planning on calling Early Impact tomorrow. I can't imagine it would be all that difficult to do. I know the Sales Tax system in Canada is a lot more complex than in many other countries and it almost borders on the moronic but such is life. This of course doesn't apply to this situation but if i for example i install a satellite system and i install 100 feet of wire and lets say 50 feet of this wire is dangling from the basement ceiling then there would be no PSt on the installation of items that become real property but i would have to charge PST on the 50 feet of wire that is not fastened down because that is not considered real property. Just one example of how our protectors tax us LOL
 


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:48pm
Do Non-Ontario customers automatically get PST exemption? Excuse my lack of knowledge on this, the Canadian tax rules seem labyrinthine.  

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:49pm
Hi Hamish
Yes i am aware of that and that is not a problem. I realize that i would have to manually authorize a customer as wholesale.


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:49pm
Yes they are.


Posted By: Greg Dinger
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by windsurfer windsurfer wrote:

I don't know who Ian is


Ian Smiley from Home-Distilling.  He's in Toronto and I recall the possibility that he addressed this very specific point.


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 1:00pm
Hi Greg
yes i did e-mail him and did get a reply, i did e-mail back with the question if customers could be exempt from just one tax and i haven't heard back yet. I am just wondering if this would be all that complex to do. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a ASP programmer , I did go to college and have my engineering certificate in electronics which by itself doesn't mean anything but logic tells me that this would not really be all that difficult to facilitate. Correct me if i am wrong.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 1:01pm
Has Ian been selling home distilleries to government offices? - Sounds like Canada is a great place to live, crazy tax system or not Big%20smile 

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 1:04pm
oh yes , besides a few oddities this is a great place to live, we have Tim Horton's coffee shops to which every Canadian is part owner and there's something in the coffee that keeps us going back day after day. The weather is great , people are friendly and best of all we lock the doors to keep people in the house not out Thumbs%20Up


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 1:07pm
I'm sure a custom solution is quite possible. Using a customer group would be a good starting point. It will be interesting to see if Ian has addressed this already and what approach he took, if he is willing to share it. 

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Posted By: Greg Dinger
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by windsurfer windsurfer wrote:

Hi Greg
I am just wondering if this would be all that complex to do. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a ASP programmer , I did go to college and have my engineering certificate in electronics which by itself doesn't mean anything but logic tells me that this would not really be all that difficult to facilitate. Correct me if i am wrong.


Consider yourself corrected.  Not only do you have to make sure such a change is accurately reflected and stored to the database in any applicable cases, then there is the "edit order" features of the admin where one has to make sure any "re-calculated total" is correct.  And I'm not sure, but it may extend beyond that. 


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 1:17pm
I won't argue with that Greg. I'll wait to see if he did get that done. I think it would be a great asset to Early Impact if this could indeed be done. I can't imagine i am the only person in Ontario who has to deal with this issue. I know there are a lot of sites that have just a catalog store and you need to sign up and of course then you could just charge the PSt and not worry about it, I have seen a few where one can sign up as a reseller but then when a purchase is made both taxes are charged and the invoice has to be manually adjusted on the vendors side. Maybe something for Early Impact to look at .


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 1:49pm
Hi,  Good news,  I just whipped up a quick store on my local system and added a "Tax by Zone" - one of the options is to exclude particular customers from that Tax.

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Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 21-June-2009 at 2:30pm
I was going to update the WIKI to cover this, but found it documented already. See: http://wiki.earlyimpact.com/productcart/tax_manual#tax_rules_by_zone_and_customer_exemptions%20 - wiki.earlyimpact.com/productcart/tax_manual#tax_rules_by_zone_and_customer_exemptions  

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 26-June-2009 at 2:24pm
Hi Hamish
Thank you for the link, I've been away this week and haven't had a chance to check it out but i certainly will do that.


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 28-June-2009 at 10:07am
Hi Hamish
I set myself up as a wholesale customer and added the tax exemptions as instructed. I did get the wholesale price displayed when i logged in , I edited the store details to reflect my location. When i went to the checkout i didn't see any taxes displayed. Is this because it is a demo ? ... also i assume that because it is a demo i can't change the home page.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 28-June-2009 at 10:18am
Hi, Wholesale customers are tax exempt, by design.  Switch the customer record back to retail & the specific tax exemption for that customer & tax should be applied OK.

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 28-June-2009 at 10:43am
I did that but then the wholesale price won't show up when i log in


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 28-June-2009 at 12:24pm
Actually the only time i can get Taxes to show up is when i make myself retail. I tried preffered customer and taxes don't show up either, the preffered custome price does.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 28-June-2009 at 7:59pm
OK. A correction to my earlier statement, the default behaviour is to not tax wholesale customers, but you can set them to be taxed via Settings > Manage Taxes.
That way, you can tax your wholesale customers whilst offering them different payment terms etc. Alternatively set these customers to retail & put them in a customer group, then set the prices for that customer group to match the wholesale prices if you prefer.



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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 7:23am
I think we are back to square one where wholesale customers would be exempt from PST but not GST. Also i can't find anything on creating a customer group. Seems to me that under the settings for tax exempt there should be an option to exempt a customer from one tax but not another.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 8:19am
Hi,
   A Customer Group should really be called a Pricing Category, apologies for theconfusion in terminology. 
Exemption from a particular tax is done at the TAX level and involves adding the particular customers eligible to the exemption on a named basis. Go to  Settings > Manage Taxes & select PST (assuming that is what you called it when you defined it)  At the bottom of the page is "view/edit customer exemptions for this tax" . From there you can add the individual customer to be exempt from PST. 

Using a Pricing Category to group these customers is a convenient way of identifying them and makes it easy to find those customers when adding them to the exemption list, but is not necessary. 


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 8:30am
Nah ..... this ain't working my friend ..... I don't think you will be able to accomplish what i need. Thanks for all the help, i do appreciate it.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 8:40am
There are other Canadian stores operating. Have you heard back from any that you contacted? If not, raise a support ticket so that we can look at the way it is configured within your store.

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Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 8:41am
Also, are you running the latest version of the code? If your on an older version it may not have been supported at that time.

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 8:50am
I am using the demo store on your website. I did ask Ian from http://www.home-distilling.com - www.home-distilling.com   If this was possible and they said yes but when i asked them the specific question about exempting wholesale customers from one tax and not the other i haven't heard back from them. I haven't bought the program yet and won't untill i know for sure this can be handled. Like i mentioned before I purchased VPASP because they claimed they could handle Canadian taxes which they couldn't and got my money back after wasting a month of my time. Of course there are a lot of programs that claim they can but they all have an option to exempt customers from taxes which exempts them from all taxes and unfortunatly there is no such thing in Canada as being exempt from GST, we all have to pay it. So in short. We have to be able to exempt a customer from one tax and not the other, simple premise, seems to be a difficult solution. 


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:08am
Hi, which of our demo stores are you testing upon? I'll review the settings there.

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Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:09am
Windsurfer, when has tax ever been simple :-D Goverments seem to take perverse pleasure in making them overly complex.

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:19am
https://www.earlyimpact.com/demos/standard/pcadmin/menu.asp - https://www.earlyimpact.com/demos/standard/pcadmin/menu.asp  
Hey, government employees have to make sure they keep busy Hamish LOL
 


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:42am
Do you have a particular customer set up to test with?

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 10:06am
yes .... wil heeren ...... Wil's TV & Satellite


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 10:09am
OK, I setup GST as the "Tax by Location" at 5% and PST as a "Tax by Zone" for Ontario, I then set wholesale to Taxable and made a single customer PST exempt. I then ran through a test order for that wholesale customer & they were only charged GST & not the PST.

Note - There is NO dependence on whether they are wholesale or not for the tax exemption.
If, as in many stores/countries wholesale customers are Tax free completely on purchases the exemption can be made to retail customers just as readily.

Please check the scenario I configured and the latest order placed on that store to see if it matches what you need. 

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Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 10:10am
Hi,  That was the customer I used - I guessed it would be due to the customer pricing category :-) 

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 1:58pm
Yes that worked for a wholesale customer when i logged in but now i selected an item and created a new account as a retail customer and when i went to checkout there is no GST charged.


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 2:01pm
Also the way you have the GST setup it shows selected as by country, does that mean GST will be charged to anybody in Canada ? and if so , what happens to customers who are for example in quebec who pay 13 % HST ?


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 2:58pm
Hi Windsurfer,
It can be set up purely using "Tax by Zone" so customers in Ontario pay two zone taxes, PST & GST and in Quebec they have a single Tax Zone "HST".  

Would any existing Canadian Store owners care to confirm if that is how you have set it up? 

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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 4:40pm
Okay I just went back in and like i mentioned before i registered as a retail customer and when i purchase something there is no GST calculated. The GST is set to country(Canada) so call me crazy but to me it seems that there should be GST calculated if i specify i am in Canada.


Posted By: ProductCart
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 8:13pm
Hi Windsurfer,

Hamish is offline at the moment. Additional "zones" and "tax rules" based on those zones needed to be entered, as indicated in our documentation mentioned earlier in this thread. You can find that documentation here:

http://wiki.earlyimpact.com/productcart/tax_manual#tax_by_zone_for_canadian_online_stores - http://wiki.earlyimpact.com/productcart/tax_manual#tax_by_zone_for_canadian_online_stores

So now the tax settings look as follows (we updated the demo store that you were using, which should be the one located http://www.earlyimpact.com/demos/standard/pcadmin/ - here ):

Canadian%20tax%20settings

You can set customer exceptions for each tax rule by going into the details page (click on the tax rule name) and pressing the corresponding button ("View/Edit Customer Exemptions for this tax").

Hopefully this works for you.

Please note that our demo stores are reset regularly so the tax settings might disappear from the demo store that you have been using within 24-48 hours. We are already considering the idea of setting up a new demo store that would always have Canadian settings active. However, that's not ready yet Smile



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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:00pm
Hi Earlyimp
I tried that and the only thing i changed is the GST which is not taxable. So i tried to enter a new customer who would be PST exempt in Ontario so i selected
New customer tried both Wholesale and pst exempt
called Joe Blow with address bla bla bla
then selected manage taxes at the bottom and selected PSt from the next page. When i selected update, the name in my record changed to Wil Heeren and saved it that way and Joe Blow was nowhere to be found. Also when i selected PST exempt the customer showed up as both wholesale and PST exempt.
 


Posted By: ProductCart
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:18pm
Hi Windsurfer,

We were able to set tax exemptions correctly using the "View/Edit Customer Exemptions for this tax" feature.
  • Select Settings > Manage Taxes
  • Click on the tax rule that you want to set exemptions for
  • Click on View/Edit Customer Exemptions for this tax
  • Select the customer(s) to add to the exemption list
  • Click on Add Checked

See screen show below.


We are not clear on the steps you took.
Could you better clarify?


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:38pm
I created a new customer called Joe Blow and filled out all the information. Then i selected modify at the bottom of the screen and it saved Joe Blow as a customer and i got a yellow box at the top of the page to confirm this. Then i went to the bottom of the page where i assumed i had to select the tax exemption where it said

Customer is not associated with a tax zone rule exemption.

And selected manage taxes. On the next page i selected PST and on the page that opened next i selected "update" at the bottom and this wiped Joe Blow off the face of the earth and changed his name to mine(Wil Heeren)


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:41pm
Maybe at the bottom of the customer entry form there should be a button such as select tax exemptions for this customer .......


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:42pm
Come to think of it.... that would be a hell of an idea :)


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 9:45pm
Also in a previos message i was told that a wholesale customer is exempt from taxes by default and yet when i look at Joe Blow he is a wholesale customer with PST exemption. That is kinda confusing to me.


Posted By: ProductCart
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 10:00pm
It depends on how you have setup your tax settings. In this case the system is setup to apply taxes on wholesale customers. It's one of the radio buttons on the tax settings page, as shown at the bottom of the screen shot below.




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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 10:03pm
Oh so true and i have seen that....my apologies .... not if you folks are planning on making any changes but this might be a nice one :)


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 30-June-2009 at 10:05pm
Another thing our protectors told us is that Retail sales tax is PST or provincial sales tax but could also be called Retail sales tax and ocours us canucks have a few other choice words for it hehe


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 01-July-2009 at 12:35am
Hi Windsurfer,
      When you selected the View/Edit customer exemptions for this tax it dispays the names of people who are currently exempt from the tax, which is why it showed your name instead of Joe Blow At the bottom of that page is an "Add customers" button where you can view a list of customers who do not currently have an exemption and choose to add any that you wish to the exemption list.


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Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 01-July-2009 at 6:35am
Hi Hamish, yes i see that, thanks for all the help, would be nice to see it integrated into an update :) , I think we have the taxes pretty well solved I'm on to the next project to see how to actually let wholesalers sign up with their PST exemption number and perhaps add a notes field at the bottom of the sign up page for a wholesale request.


Posted By: windsurfer
Date Posted: 01-July-2009 at 7:02am
I got that figured out. In Canada a vendor has to display his/her GST registration number on the invoice, i have searched in the help file but i don't see anything on this unless your purchased program has this capability. At least i don't see an option to add a custom field to the invoice.


Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 01-July-2009 at 9:37am
Hi Windsurfer,
   Regarding, the displaying of your GST code, that functionality exists for VAT (European sales tax) stores. I'll check whether it's available / easily enabled in other circumstances, but even if that is not possible it's pretty straight forward to hard code that value with a couple of minor edits.


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Editing ProductCart Code?

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Posted By: ProductCart
Date Posted: 01-July-2009 at 11:33am
Several messages regarding "image folders" were posted to this thread, but were "off topic". So they were http://www.earlyimpact.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2836 - moved to this new thread .

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The ProductCart Team

Home of ProductCart http://www.productcart.com" rel="nofollow - shopping cart software



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