Question for developers about custom price vs ...
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Topic: Question for developers about custom price vs ...
Posted By: JWL
Subject: Question for developers about custom price vs ...
Date Posted: 09-September-2009 at 8:39pm
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Hi, if a developer tries to charge (per hour) pricing for custom code that isn't custom code, but rather identical copy/pasted code, that was used on another project they worked on - how ethical is that as far as a business practice. Thanks! |
Replies:
Posted By: ProductCart
Date Posted: 10-September-2009 at 7:44pm
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We don't see absolutely anything wrong with that. When you hire a developer you are paying for the time it takes to assist you: from understanding what your needs are, to making whatever changes need to be made, to delivering a pre-packaged solution (e.g. an add-on for ProductCart), etc.
- If the source code needed for the job (if any) is new code, it will take the developer more time to assist you, so you will end up paying more for the project. - If the source code is not new, it will take less time to assist you. You should certainly expect to pay for any time another company spends providing you with whatever product and services you requested from them. How are they going to stay in business otherwise? ------------- The ProductCart Team Home of ProductCart http://www.productcart.com" rel="nofollow - shopping cart software |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 10-September-2009 at 9:47pm
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Earlyimp, I think you missed the point. There is obviously a huge difference (in price) between hiring someone to do custom code - as oppose to purchasing a license for code that is available to the public for purchase. For instance, if you had developed ProductCart for a single client... and only that client was to ever use the software, because it was custom work - than that would cost them A LOT more than it does for someone to purchase a license for ProductCart. Now say you were to go around selling ProductCart to multiple clients as if it were a totally custom job for each client, and thus charging the high fee associated with that type of work (because it 'custom work' takes more time and thus costs more than licensed code... as you noted in your post) - even though the same code is reused on each "custom" job - than that would be unethical, correct? |
Posted By: intour
Date Posted: 15-September-2009 at 6:12pm
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This is a difficult one.
If someone hires me to create and design a website I use a lot of code I have used before on other sites. I may adapt it slightly but it is still the same code I may have spent several hours on for another job. I may have purchased some software to make my life easier but my customers pay because I know what to use, where to get it from and how to use it.
People pay for your knowhow and expertise. A lawyer, for example, will still charge $200/$300 or more per hour even if he is working on a case identical to one he worked on the previous month.
I think its not good to pretend its totally new code but if you developed it you're entitled to charge for it regardless if you have been paid to do something similar or identical before.
In my own case I'd most likely tell the customer I'd done something similar before but I'd still charge for it if I was asked to do it again.
A photographer, for example, may be commissioned to take a photograph but he still owns the copyright and can sell the image on again if he wants unles specifically contracted not to.
I'm not taking sides here - just trying to give a view.
It's just business I guess.
Nigel ------------- http://www.innerview.co.uk - Innerview Productcart Platinum Reseller Web Design/Hosting/Virtual Tours |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 16-September-2009 at 6:27am
| Is there anyone here who speaks human? I don't think there is - but, I can hope can't I. |
Posted By: intour
Date Posted: 16-September-2009 at 10:11am
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Many of us have been using this forum for years and don't have any problem communicating. Perhaps the problem lies with you?
Nigel
------------- http://www.innerview.co.uk - Innerview Productcart Platinum Reseller Web Design/Hosting/Virtual Tours |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 16-September-2009 at 3:46pm
| No, the problem doesn't lie with me, sir. The problem lies with all of the snakes who are manipulating humanity. |
Posted By: macleather
Date Posted: 16-September-2009 at 4:32pm
| JWL, If the snakes continue to manipulate you, maybe your time would be better spent learning how to code for yourself rather than hiring a developer. Intour's explanation is right on point. This is how all accountants and lawyers and other professionals work, like it or not. You always have the choice not to hire. |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 16-September-2009 at 4:48pm
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Mac, I was always hestitant to hire a developer, and I won't do it again - I plan on learning to code myself... so I don't have to put up with all the lies and deceit. And, yea - I know... that's how it works - does that make it right? No... it's like auto mechanics - or used car salesmen... I'm not sure these people have any idea what ethics are. They might lie to themselves and buy into that lie - but, they really don't have any idea, what it means to be honest and ethical. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-September-2009 at 12:53am
I've been trying to avoid this one as it's such a lightning rod, but this last pill is rahter harsh to swallow.
Fist of all developers, designers, project managers, etc. come in as many shapes, stripes and colors as people do. It's completely unfair and inaccurate to stereotype any of these folks.
However, when it comes to developers, recycling code is more a sign of a good developer. And even if it was a total cut and paste job, when you are contracting a developer you are contracting their expertise, not buying their code so much.
That is, it's the developers experience that is the "comodity" here, not their code. It's not at all uncommon for us developers to put in far more time on a nice "widget" than we actually get paid fair price for -- so it is not at all unreasonable for us to see if we can't find other opportunities to get that time paid back.
But even then, it's really more about the knowledge and experience.
I'm reminded of a little story that is often used in many contexts to illustrate this point:
There's this canning factory with a big assembly line pouring peas into cans and packaging them up. One day something goes wrong with the assembly line. The factory management calls in an engineer to fix it. The engineer surveys the situation, pokes his nose here and there, and then he opens up his tool box and pulls out a hammer. He then wacks the machinery in a certain spot, and everything starts working again on the assembly line.
The engineer then sends the factory a bill for $1000.00.
The factory protests: "All you did is wack it with a hammer!"
The engineer then explains that it was only $1.00 for the hammer wack, but $999.00 to know where to wack it.
EDIT: I should add that this story was first presented to my by a client MANY years ago who protested that I wasn't charging ENOUGH for my knowledge and expertise.
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JWL wrote:Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 17-September-2009 at 2:09am
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How could it be this difficult to get a straight answer? Honestly, it's a
yes or no question... regardless of the relativity of pricing to other
companies... can you or can you not always charge more for a 'custom'
job as oppose to selling a premade module? Of course, the developer is getting paid something for the work... so your remarks regarding paying the developer for his expertise are just beside the point. I'm looking for yes or no answers, not runaround politician answers. Really, you're just proving my point by the way you talk around my question. I already know the answer, I was just hoping someone else would actually admit to it - but, I guess a group of developers aren't exactly the right people to ask - since it sounds like you all rationalize this type of deceitful behavior. This is what I'm talking about - the mindset of people who work in these type of service-based industries are typically shady (there are always possible exceptions) - it's like politics. Because, there are no real standards for pricing you assume you can just do whatever you want, tell a little lie here and there to make a few extra bucks - stretch out the time you need to spend on a project to get paid more, anything to prey on the ignorance of the customer, just like an auto mechanic. The bottom line is that a company can always charge more for a completely custom job as oppose to selling a premade module... but I guess that's too difficult of a thing to admit or something. And, that was really the only point I was trying to make. |
Posted By: Greg Dinger
Date Posted: 17-September-2009 at 2:30am
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 17-September-2009 at 2:39am
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Reread my last post... yea, I agree developers are skilled and they may also be very amiable... but politicians are amiable, so that doesn't count for much. A developer will get the job done, that's not the point - the point is principle and ethics. It's about being honest... even when you have the opportunity to get away with being dishonest - but, I guess - people don't really understand what that means. Also, if a company develops a single computer for a client from scratch, than yes - the price for that job could cost hundreds of thousands if not millions, but if that same computer is in mass production and resold to everyone, than the price would only be a few thousand for the same computer. So, are you saying that if a computer company went around charging every customer a development price instead of a retail price, that you wouldn't have a problem with that? Because, that is what a developer is doing by charging multiple customers a development price for code that has already been developed. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-September-2009 at 3:21am
Please stop with the stereotyping and straw man arguments. We get it: you think a developer is nothing but a bunch of binary which can be handled like pressing DVD's or something. That may or may not be the case in various situations, but I do not see it as the point. The point is that "code is poetry" to borrow from the WordPress folks. It's up to the creator of the code to decide how she/he wants to distribute it. Trust me, these decisions are not easy. Every day we weigh whether a need should be handled as a customization or maybe something we build as an add-on and decide to license that way. Going back to Greg's comment, in the grand scheme of things, we're often lucky if we break better than even when we decide to license an add-on rather than develop as a customization. And frankly some customizations require so much understanding of the base application that they are simply not viable to release as so many "resealable products". Getting back to your request for a completely unnuanced response: "Yes", it is most likely completely appropriate and ethical for your developer to have charged you for their experience and knowledge in so much as it met your need. And "No", it's probably not appropriate for you to be airing your laundry here or even taking up a subject like this here IHMO. I'd recommend that you take your case up on a broader forum such as http://forums.digitalpoint.com/ |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 17-September-2009 at 3:39am
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No one is airing dirty laundry - this is a general topic, as no companies have been mentioned. Also, maybe I would feel a little better if a developer could give me an example of something that they would consider unethical - because the thing that unnerves me the most - is that it sounds like anything can be rationalized as being ethical. I would honestly like to know what a developer considers unethical behavior, besides stealing someone's code or something of that nature. I'm talking about unethical action between the developer and client. For example, if a developer says a custom job took 5 hours when it only took 2 hours (no code was reused, everything was new code) is that ethical behavior - because, the developer lost money on another project, so they are justified in making up for it on this project... or maybe - the developer just arbitrarily decided to charge more, depending on what he wanted to make for the job - and that's justified because developers don't have to abide by or honor their own pricing model. They can advertise a low per hour rate, say $80hr - but then charge as much as they want to by simply breaking down the total to that per hour rate, even though they are charging the customer for time that wasn't even spent on the project. And, this is rationalized, by saying any charge over the actual amount of time it takes to complete the work is a hidden "expertise" fee. This so-called expertise fee, should already be factored into your per hour pricing, because it's part of your service... if your expertise isn't included in the per hour rate, than what is?! Without the expertise, you couldn't even do any work - which means the per hour rate is worth nothing. So, if the above event were to take place - you have a case of false advertising - because the developer is saying their time costs $80hr. But, in actuality - on this project their time cost $200hr - because the customer was charged $400 for 2 hours of time. And, this is perfectly acceptable and ethical behavior? Note: This 5 hour charge is separate from any other billable fees associated with the project, such as consulation etc. "The engineer then sends the factory a bill for $1000.00. The factory protests: "All you did is wack it with a hammer!" The engineer then explains that it was only $1.00 for the hammer wack, but $999.00 to know where to wack it." You are lacking proper context. What if the engineer told the factory that he charges $100 per hour for his services... and, it only took him an hour to fix the problem, but then sent a bill for $1000. That means he advertised $100 an hour, but actually charged $1000 per hour. |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 17-September-2009 at 4:10am
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"Yes, it is entirely appropriate - and common - that you will be charged
for a module despite the fact that someone else may have already been
charged." Hold on - do you think I'm saying that someone shouldn't pay for a module just because it's been sold before? Huh? That's not it at all. I'm talking about the pricing of the code, and the ethics about calling it custom code as oppose to an already developed module - because that is what determines the price. |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 17-September-2009 at 4:33am
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And, I would just like to clarify my position because apparently there
is a lot of confusion. I am NOT saying that there is anything wrong
with reusing code. I am NOT saying that there is anything wrong with
charging a certain fee for reused code. The point I am making is a matter of ethics. Now, let's say you were to reuse an identical copy/pasted code from a previous project on a new project. And, this new client asked you if this code had been used on another website, and you said, "No, it is new code." Would you have any issue with telling that lie? According to what some have said, a developer can charge any price they want to, so what would be the benefit in lying to your customer and telling them it was new code as opposed to copy/pasted code? There is no point in lying unless there is something to benefit or gain, so if a developer did lie about this... what would be their reasoning, since according to others in this thread - a developer can basically charge whatever they want regardless if the code is new or reused. I think this is a much clearer description of the point I am trying to make, so I would appreciate some honest replies in regards to this situation, because I am honestly confounded as to the rationalization behind this type of behavior. When someone tells me a bald face lie, I feel deeply disrespected, insulted and exploited. So, my question is... what would be the motivation for saying code is new when it's actually copy/pasted code? There must be something to gain, otherwise - there is no need for the lie. And, one last thing - this has nothing to do with being perfect. Everyone makes mistakes - but, it's one thing to make an honest mistake - and it's another thing to consciously and knowingly lie to a customer in order to achieve some sort of gain. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-September-2009 at 12:50am
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Just for the record, for the benefit of the honest ProductCart users who may stumble upon this rant by JWL here -- the developer JWL appaears to be trying to slander here is NOT any of the developers who have responded to this thread. In fact, this developer has a totally SOLID reputation with the rest of the community. |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 18-September-2009 at 2:43am
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Is it not possible to have an open discussion about the ethics involved in the developer profession without it being turned into some sort of fake drama? I really want to know what developers consider unethical behavior. Please, don't read into something that's not there... because it seems like that's what you're doing for some reason. Also, if I do conduct business with a developer or e-tailer or anyone for that matter, and I want the public to know about my experience than I will write a review, but that's not what this thread is about. This is a general topic, directed at all developers. Do you not want to discuss the ethics involved in your line of work? All I am doing is asking questions, if someone asked questions like this in regard to my profession, I would not hesitate for a second to give them a straight and honest answer. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-September-2009 at 3:28am
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Matt, Just give it up, man. You're just making yourself look poorly here. If you are honestly interested in what developers may think about your "ethics" question, then you should take that up on a more general forum as I have suggested. Try http://forums.digitalpoint.com/ - http://forums.digitalpoint.com/ -- thousands of great folks there from all over the globe. I doubt you'll get a different response than what you found here, though. Stop poisoning the well, man! There is a great community of merchants, programmers, designers, project managers, etc. here. You are steadily making yourself rather an outcast. PS: You've caused such a ruckus that there is a lot of buzz about you now behind the scenes. You can pretty much rest assured that none of us will ever touch you with a ten foot pole. So you better start leaning to program; Good luck on that. PPS: Having learned more about your grievance, I really understand more what Greg posted last night before I had the "inside scoop" on you. You are really out of bounds complaining like this over something you ultimately got for free. You should honestly be ashamed. PPPS: Just STOP IT with this nonsense. Seriously, man. You're just making yourself look bad here. PPPS: You'll probaly think I'm just taking sides. I'm not. I'm just seeing someone make a big fool of themselves here -- that'd be you. Quit before you completely incinerate any chance of anyone sensible in this community working with you ever again. Frankly, I'd suggest that you humble up and apologize before everyone here in hopes that some one will take pity on you in the future. |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 18-September-2009 at 4:14am
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Poisoning the well? Making myself look poorly? Making a big fool out of myself? What? You are
completely misrepresenting this thread. Please, stay on topic and refrain from the ad hominem attacks. Like I said in my last
comment, if I do business with a developer and I want the public to
know about my experience than I will leave a review. This thread is directed at developers in general. I want to discuss the ethics involved in your line of work, and find out what everyone considers acceptable or unacceptable behavior, because honestly - before I started this thread, my impression of developers in general was kinda low... so I was hoping that I could ask some questions and have developers themselves change that impression by letting me know what they consider ethical and unethical. After, I received a few replies, which I felt didn't properly address my question - I grew frustrated because I thought maybe my impression of developers in general was true, but I don't want that to be the case - because I will probably need to use a developer at some point in time. I started the thread on this forum, because if I do need custom work for PC in the future, I want to know if there are any developers in this community who I feel, have the same ethical standards as myself. Trust me, if I need development work for something other than PC, I will most surely ask other developers these same series of questions, to find out whether or not they are someone I want to do business with. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-September-2009 at 5:41am
I do not believe this to be the case, Matt.
Are you deaf? The response from developers on this forum has be RESOUNDINGLY clear. Maybe you need to take it up on an more general forum as I've suggested. This forum is about ProductCart, not your more general question about developer ethics, etc...
Then apologize to the good folks here after you cast a pale on us all. You honestly need to eat some humble pie here, Matt. You were really out of line. Just say you are sorry. Might help some folks to see you as less caustic down the road here.
Well, you certainly went about it the wrong way, man! You just pissed everyone off here. Good luck getting anyone to even answer an email for phone call from you now.
And you will find find the situation the same if you find any good folks there. I'm not bullsh*tting you here, Matt. I've well over a decade of experience building shopping carts for folks, and over 300 current clients. Greg at GBDG is similar (I've known and collaborated with Greg for about a decade now). The other developer you appear to be slandering here is also top notch. You are seriously NOT making any friends here with the best and the brightest; you're just shooting yourself in the foot, as it were.. |
Posted By: JWL
Date Posted: 18-September-2009 at 6:35am
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If every developer in this thread, who has read every one of my posts - thinks that every example I gave is ethical and acceptable behavior, than I owe no one in this thread an apology - because, every one of the examples I gave - if they were to happen... is completely unacceptable - and I gave very detailed reasons for why I believe that to be the case. You say, I should be ashamed for voicing my concerns about the ethics of developers? Sir, do you understand that I have every right to object to behavior that I consider unethical or unacceptable or do you think I have to conform to other people's standard of ethics? You know what, maybe we should just end the thread here - because, obviously we're not gonna see eye to eye on this subject - and I really have no desire to continue addressing ad hominem attacks, when I have done nothing but voice honest concerns. Thank you. |
Posted By: Hamish
Date Posted: 18-September-2009 at 6:48am
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Hi Folks, I don't know any of the background to this spat & I thank everyone for not naming specific companies or individuals. I would just like to ask that this thread be wrapped up ASAP as it's not going anywhere useful and is not particular to ProductCart. ------------- Editing ProductCart Code? See http://wiki.earlyimpact.com/developers/editcode" rel="nofollow - WIKI Guidelines for Editing ProductCart's ASP Source Code |
Posted By: ProductCart
Date Posted: 18-September-2009 at 12:26pm
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Yep. Time to move on. Thread closed.
Massimo ------------- The ProductCart Team Home of ProductCart http://www.productcart.com" rel="nofollow - shopping cart software |